Curse

Master Sword Keeper · Feb 01, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

/disagree.

Let me clear some stuff up for everyone. Firstly, Everyone is well aware that you need a req SS title in NF to continue certain quests. "The honerable general and the quests involving the additional 30 attr points for your char.

Enabling a grind free zone will jepardise the quests and simply make NF exceptionally easy to conquer over. As for LB there are certain issues when it comes to, "dzagoner bastion and the TORMENT areas." These missions including Grand court will be easy than hell to complete in record time.

As well with Sunspear. Say.... a Lvl 2 necro can get Necrosis "remember a ss title if change goes ahead" [skill]Necrosis[/skill] would be godly for a lvl 2 to have.

Lukas · Feb 01, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

/signed

Maybe not all titles, but at least some like Wisdom and Treasure Hunter.

bilateralrope · Feb 01, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

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Originally Posted by Vesio

As for this breaking my game? Now thousands more characters have access to high level game-breaking skills? And you're going to assume that won't hasten the decay of this game? Naive.

If the skills are game breaking, that is a problem that needs fixing even without this change. If they aren't game breaking then this isn't an issue.

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And then you're going to tell me that these same game-breaking skills make skilled players less effective? No, what they do is make the less skilled players able to complete things that they normally wouldn't be able to. A skilled player will still be able to complete everything they wish to in this game without any of the pve skills because lets face it no title is in anyway necessary to complete, and when it really comes down do it it matters little if they are account based or not.

Are you saying that it takes more skill to repeat an area that is excatly the same as when you did it the first time ?

And what about the skilled players who want to PUG, but can't get into them because they don't have the title the PUGs require ?
H/H works in some areas, but not in:
FoW, UW, The Deep, Urgoz, DOA

So what should they do there ?

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And does it hurt me? Maybe, to a certain extent. Now I have to worry about thousands more people who have put very little thought into their build besides "press 1". Then complaining when they haven't learned how to really play the game. I have to worry (more) about incompetent players when I decide to hop into a PUG. Now people are complaining that titles that have very little significance outside of the plot of the story (and therefore in no way necessary to complete for their continued enjoyment and success) need to be fixed. Furthermore, I don't ever intend on maxing out another SS/LB title so why would I want to be punished for that? I got my 50k. Make it account based and you can be dang sure that the cap will increase. Why would I want to grind out another 50, 100, or even 200k points to get to the point that I am already at? So yes, in a way it can affect me.

Only if the cap increases. And the incompetent players will still have to reach the area in question and grind up the title for the skill at least once.

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Which brings me back to my original point: Don't do it. YOU have a character who has already completed the title? great! you are in no way obligated to go through that grind again.

Unless you want to PUG an area on a secondary character when the PUGs demand a specific rank.

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then i'll move on to Mr. (or Mrs. i don't know which) Bilateralrope.

What do I do if there's no other reason to be in that area? I don't go. Plain and simple. But, even if you gain points doing the same thing only with different characters you are still doing the grind so that argument doesn't lend any support to account based grind titles.

If you don't do the grind it limits what your character can do. Doing it on other characters gives you more reason to be in the area if you want to repeat it.

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So breaking the game even further to accomodate those who chose not to do the grind (which may very well still end up being a grind) makes it an acceptable course of action?

While a game breaking ability is a problem I feel that it's less of a problem if you have more people able to take advantage of it. And with more people abusing it you have a better chance of it getting fixed.

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If i were to invite a PUG i think i'd choose the person that used a well-thought out build. Even if it is harder to run than ursan (because it really goes without saying the interplay of 8 skills is going to be harder to manage than activating one and then spamming the limited bar that you recieve).

Can you be sure that they produced the build and know how to run it ?
Or did they just grab the build from someone else without even asking how to run it ?

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And what should this player do to complete the area in question? Start his own group maybe?

Only if he can find other PUG's to join him

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Have some patience maybe?

Patience only helps him find a solution if one exists.

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Help a guildie, work on something else

So avoiding the task he wants to complete is a good way to complete it ?

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or heaven forbid he would actually come up with a build that would make it possible to find a group or even H/H the area.

The tasks I'd usually expect this person to want help with are:
Deep/Urgoz - 12 man area, no henchmen.
DOA - 8 man area, no henchmen.
Slavers exile. Possible H/Hable, but I haven't heard of anyone doing so.

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Because none of that is more desirable than grinding out a rep title.

With account based titles he has a better chance of getting the title up from what he does with his other characters.

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You also responded with simple math showing how the grind could potentially be even worse for some players. What good does that do you?

Yes it all depends on the multiplier. Given the number of people who only run one character I can't see how ANET can justify anything greater than a multiplier of 1, or a sliding scale based on how many characters you have.

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And there really isn't anything inherently "special" about grinding away at a title (either character based or account based). But, it sets that character apart on your account as well as in your head. Unique does not always denote "special".

Setting characters apart based on how much bordem has been inflicted upon the player with them. I can't see how this is a good thing.

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Why should I worry about stat boosts that any skilled played doesn't need? And maybe my protest will go unnoticed, but at least i'm not telling ANet that I'm going to continue to do the grind.

They are needed because the PUG's demand them.

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Maybe because I don't know everything? But I can tell you this. Make the titles account based and people will still complain about having to grind. Even you my friend may find yourself wishing for days when they are character based.

Yes the grind will still be complained about. So ?

Why would I want them character based ?

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Finally a decent argument. Your Kurz/Lux argument is good. and you are right about that. Maybe it is that which should be fixed. NPC's should react differently to each of my characters.

Then go suggest ANET makes this change.

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However, your Xunlai Agents have reacted to every character the same from the start of the game. Wealth or no wealth (you need what, 50 gold to access your chest the first time?).

If we treat the characters as separate entities this can be looked on as your character bribing them to give him access to someone else's private stash.

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They don't care how much you use the storage as long as you pay them their gold

But, now that you mention it maybe all your characters shouldn't be allowed to access the same storage account (but you know where that will lead).

Eve Online manages to have no shared storage system. If you want to transfer stuff between your characters you use the same systems you use to give stuff to other players characters. So it is possible to set up an MMO without shared storage.

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P.S. I ground my LB title outside of the Remains of Salahjah during the double point weekend. And rest assured, it was one of the most heinous experiences that I have had to date in the game.

Keeping the LB title character based will mean people repeat it for every single character, or miss out on the stat boosts, and they aren't likely to get a double points weekend for all the characters. I'm running 7 characters currently. So I'm looking at a total of approximately 14 times the grind you did (I wasn't able to play GW during that weekend).

If the multiplier is greater than a players number of characters then account based will hurt them, so any multiplier higher than 1 will piss off a lot of people. Higher and it benefits them. But what isn't as simple to see is that for people with two or more characters even a multiplier equal to their number of characters is a benefit to them until they hit max. To see this look at how many points you have above the max rank. Currently they are useless, but if it was account based those points would of still gone towards maxing the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Sword Keeper

/disagree.

Let me clear some shit up for everyone. Firstly, Everyone is well aware that you need a req SS title in NF to continue certain quests. "The honerable general and the quests involving the additional 30 attr points for your char.

Why is it a good thing to hold up a player simply because they haven't repeated some task an arbitrary number of times ?

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Enabling a grind free zone will jepardise the quests and simply make NF exceptionally easy to conquer over.

Only for players who have been through there once. Most of the time they will be wanting to just speed through the starting areas, and if not they can still stay behind if they want to.

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As for LB there are certain issues when it comes to, "dzagoner bastion and the TORMENT areas." These missions including Grand court will be easy than hell to complete in record time.

And how is this different from a single character maxing out the title and speeding through the missions now ?

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As well with Sunspear. Say.... a Lvl 2 necro can get Necrosis "remember a ss title if change goes ahead" [skill]Necrosis[/skill] would be godly for a lvl 2 to have.

Yes that is a bit of an issue. So restrict the PvE only skills to level 20 characters only like ANET did with the Luxon/Kurzick skills.

Stupid Shizno · Feb 02, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

whats wrong with low levels having pve only skills? low levels have max armor? this game is already broken.

if you disagree with this, you want grind. pretty simple, you want to feel special cause you grinded a pretty useless title and dont want everyone else to have it. by making it account based, more people have it, your epeen shrinks, wow. gg on ego, qq less please.

Vesio · Feb 02, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

this time shizno i'll respond to you first simply because it is shorter.

There is nothing really wrong with characters having pve skills, nor having max armor (well nothing that really concerns this thread anyway so i won't go into it.) But disagreeing with this means in no way do I want grind. In fact i'm completely ANTI-grind. You can't even begin to convince me that if these titles were made account base that the max cap would remain at its current level, and would almost (99% chance i'd say) certainly increase. Now since I am anti-grind what is to make me go grind those points? I don't want to do extra grind to get where I already am which is what I'd have to do in the event of an increase. Does it really matter if this gets changed? nope, not one bit. Does it help the game in any way? nope, if it did i'd be all for it.

Moving on

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If the skills are game breaking, that is a problem that needs fixing even without this change. If they aren't game breaking then this isn't an issue.

You're right, if they aren't game breaking this isn't an issue. But they are, so it is. What is the most simple solution to fixing this problem? Don't use the skills. And if we go there then it doesn't matter if you have the max rank or not.

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Are you saying that it takes more skill to repeat an area that is excatly the same as when you did it the first time ?

And what about the skilled players who want to PUG, but can't get into them because they don't have the title the PUGs require ?

Not at all! What takes skill is actually thinking through not only your personal build but the party composition for any given area. And that you don't need to rely on those skills that break the game. And those skilled players who don't have the "requisite" title for a PUG? screw the pug, start his own not setting title requirements. You'd be suprised what you can find with a little patience.

Oh, and you'd be suprised what you can do in UW, FoW, Urgoz, yes even Duncan with H/H, no PvE skills, and a little thought.

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Only if the cap increases

And can you really even start to bring any good arguments as to why the cap would remain the same?

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If you don't do the grind it limits what your character can do. Doing it on other characters gives you more reason to be in the area if you want to repeat it.

My characters are in no way limited because I choose not to grind out another meaningless max title. I can do everything in this game that anyone else with max titles can do. A little trickier? mayhaps, but much more rewarding for my time. What other reason would I have for bringing a second character to the same area to grind the points to max the title? why to grind points with a different character of course! great! I'm still grinding.

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While a game breaking ability is a problem I feel that it's less of a problem if you have more people able to take advantage of it. And with more people abusing it you have a better chance of it getting fixed.

two wrongs don't make a right, neither does 100000 abusers. Maybe it'll be fixed quicker...most likely it ends up in a nerf.

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Can you be sure that they produced the build and know how to run it ?
Or did they just grab the build from someone else without even asking how to run it ?

I can't be sure on either of those things no. But, as long as they are willing to hear suggestions and follow orders if need be they'll learn the build. which in turn will make them a better/more skilled player than simply mashing ursan keys.

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Patience only helps him find a solution if one exists. They are needed because the PUG's demand them.

And there will always be a solution to his problem. I believe that I have offered several alternatives to grinding ANY title (even account based) as a means of completing an area. And i'm not asking that said player ignores or avoids a task that he would like to complete. It is simple delay of gratification. Have patience, you'll get there. It may not be as fast as some, but you can be sure that you'll have more fun along the way. Furthermore, PUG's only demand certain ranks in a title because the community has decided that it is a good idea to grind the titles to use skills that are in reality completely unnecessary. So why can't the community decide that the grind is not worth the time and move back to skills that don't require the titles?

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Yes it all depends on the multiplier. Given the number of people who only run one character I can't see how ANET can justify anything greater than a multiplier of 1, or a sliding scale based on how many characters you have.

And given you're position that this would encourage characters to run more than one character, which ANet will most likely have thought of how can they justify anything not greater than one?

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Setting characters apart based on how much bordem has been inflicted upon the player with them. I can't see how this is a good thing.

Lets say the cap is reset at 250k points. Regardless of how many characters you have that is still 5 times the amount of points i need now to max out an arbitrary title. Why would I want to spend 5 times as much time (and mind-numbing boredom) as i did now to complete the title? I can't see how this is a good thing.

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Yes the grind will still be complained about. So ?

Why would I want them character based ?

So? Stop doing the grind. You choose to subject yourself to it. Stop doing it and you have nothing to complain about anymore. And if I could forsee the future I'd tell you, but alas I cannot.

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Eve Online manages to have no shared storage system.

To a certain extent. There are corporation hangers which are to some degree shared storage, but you run the risk of being completely ripped off. But, we aren't here to discuss EVE.

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I'm running 7 characters currently. look at how many points you have above the max rank. Currently they are useless, but if it was account based those points would of still gone towards maxing the title.

And you know how many character I am running? I have 8 characters that I am running in various stages of their development. Barring the one that I have already completed the titles on I am looking at the same grind time as you. However, seeing as how these titles will have no meaningful effect on my game play I am highly unlikely to complete any of the grind titles with those characters which makes my grind time significantly less than yours. so please don't assume that such a thing would only apply to you. And sure those points would go towards maxing the title....until you maxed the title then you get extra points again.

So this brings us back again to: why do the grind?

Steboy93 · Feb 02, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

I think that wisdom+treasure hunter should be account based, but as for the rest of the 'grind' titles, then noo.

Kanyatta · Feb 02, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupid Shizno

if you disagree with this, you want grind. pretty simple, you want to feel special cause you grinded a pretty useless title and dont want everyone else to have it. by making it account based, more people have it, your epeen shrinks, wow. gg on ego, qq less please.

This is the entire argument here in a nutshell.

roshanabey2 · Feb 02, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Wisdom seeker + treasure hunter should be account base because it equals to too much grind but asuran, norn, deldimore (or however you spell it) and ebon vanguard and others have the right amount of grind that keeps people intersted in the game and not too frustrated.

(The dwarwen title is easy to get up, by doing freezie's dungeon and so on for other samish titles)

Try hard & work = reward = happy feeling inside= people play guild wars = Anet happy (Eotn titles)

Too much work = frustrated = not playing guild wars anymore = Anet go bust (wisdom seeker and treasure hunter)

Account base titles (excluding wisdom seeker and treasure hunter)= too easy = bored quickly = not playing guild wars = Anet go bust (cos word spread that guild wars is easy and might as well play wow)

so i am /half signed and /signed to clever marketing by anet

Isileth · Feb 02, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by roshanabey2

Wisdom seeker + treasure hunter should be account base because it equals to too much grind but asuran, norn, deldimore (or however you spell it) and ebon vanguard and others have the right amount of grind that keeps people intersted in the game and not too frustrated.

I disagree, the fact to get them there is all that grind stops me taking new chars through and even bothering with current chars.

Fun gameplay is what keeps me interested, not grinding.

roshanabey2 · Feb 02, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I disagree, the fact to get them there is all that grind stops me taking new chars through and even bothering with current chars.

Fun gameplay is what keeps me interested, not grinding.

fun pve gameplay is grind. When I mean grind I mean progressing through the game without automatic results like pvp (even though I love pvp it has auto results)

p.s taking your chars to where??

Isileth · Feb 02, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

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Originally Posted by roshanabey2

fun pve gameplay is grind. When I mean grind I mean progressing through the game without automatic results like pvp (even though I love pvp it has auto results)

Progressing through a game is fine.
Grinding the same bits over and over isnt.

I want the gameplay itself to be fun. I want to play because I enjoy playing not because of a carrot on the end of a stick.

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Originally Posted by roshanabey2

p.s taking your chars to where??

Through the game.

roshanabey2 · Feb 02, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

you cam max your title without grinding but sometimes you have to do it a bit but that is because you want to. Doing something again isnt borring it like saying i don't want to go UW because I have been there before.
If you have to spend over 24hours of gameplay on a single task then that is borring.

Eldin · Feb 02, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

/signed

Too many of these epic titles require epic patience and time on one character, then you realize you have to work it up on other characters.

What I specifically would want to see:
-Wisdom Title Track
-Treasure Hunter
-Sweet Tooth/Drunkard?

Account specific. ANet, I can't afford to do these titles more than once - hell I can't do them once.

Kanyatta · Feb 02, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by roshanabey2

Try hard & work = reward = happy feeling inside= people play guild wars = Anet happy (Eotn titles)

When I get home from work, I don't want to sit down at my computer and do more "work" i want to have "fun". Not everyone considers grinding for countless hours "fun". Maybe if everyone who /notsigned this thread realized that, this discussion might be going differently.

KennyC · Feb 02, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

/signed

Please change the titles to account based titles - reduce the repetitive grinding nature of guild wars ever so slightly please, it's starting to feel like groundhog day.

tyvm

mafia cyborg · Feb 02, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

remove titles and these reatrded pve skills which are NOT balanced.
before u had to work out builds among 100+ skill......now u just rank up and use the few pve skills cos thy are better than all the other skills.
how retarded is that? its ruined the game.

bilateralrope · Feb 02, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by roshanabey2

Wisdom seeker + treasure hunter should be account base because it equals to too much grind but asuran, norn, deldimore (or however you spell it) and ebon vanguard and others have the right amount of grind that keeps people intersted in the game and not too frustrated.

Maybe they have the right amount of grind for one character. What about for seven characters ?

How many characters are you running ?

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(The dwarwen title is easy to get up, by doing freezie's dungeon and so on for other samish titles)

The problem with the grind based titles is not that they are hard. The problem is that the grind titles are easy, yet time consuming, to acquire. Try not to confuse difficulty with the time required to do something.

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Try hard & work = reward = happy feeling inside= people play guild wars = Anet happy (Eotn titles)

And here I thought that the point of a video game was to play for fun, not to play for work. But that may just be me.

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Too much work = frustrated = not playing guild wars anymore = Anet go bust (wisdom seeker and treasure hunter)

Account base titles (excluding wisdom seeker and treasure hunter)= too easy = bored quickly = not playing guild wars = Anet go bust (cos word spread that guild wars is easy and might as well play wow)

Ok, so your willing to tolerate a lot more grind than other people. So what ?

The hard parts of Guild Wars are also the parts that do very little towards grinding up the titles. Even with account based titles this wouldn't change.

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so i am /half signed and /signed to clever marketing by anet

Clever marketing ?

When I look at grind what I see is a way for the developers to increase how long players play the game for without having the developers do any real work on their part. Just make the player repeat something a few times.

LicensedLuny · Feb 03, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

It seems like some of the not-signers are concerned that if the titles were account based the ceiling would rise on the max levels.

How about giving players the option? You can keep your titles character-based if that best suits your style of play. Or, you can opt to have your titles account based and accept the higher caps.

If ANet gave me the option between keeping the title caps as they are and earning them over on each character OR accepting a higher cap on these title tracks and allowing all my characters to contribute, I'd choose the latter.

Personally, I'd rather they simply leave the caps where they are and make these account based. It would require no less time or effort for me, the account's player, to max the titles. It would simply mean I could max the titles while playing any of my characters.

I honestly don't care about my account or my characters having max titles just for the sake of having max titles. (GW2 bonuses will have to be REALLY good for me to change my mind.) It's the extra broken lockpicks that bug me.

Luny

Marverick · Feb 03, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55

/signed

Especially the Wisdom and Chest Hunter title tracks since they directly affect gameplay and right now are more of a hassle (switching chars to ID/salvage stuff) than anything else.

Quote:

/disagree.

Let me clear some stuff up for everyone. Firstly, Everyone is well aware that you need a req SS title in NF to continue certain quests. "The honerable general and the quests involving the additional 30 attr points for your char.

Enabling a grind free zone will jepardise the quests and simply make NF exceptionally easy to conquer over. As for LB there are certain issues when it comes to, "dzagoner bastion and the TORMENT areas." These missions including Grand court will be easy than hell to complete in record time.

As well with Sunspear. Say.... a Lvl 2 necro can get Necrosis "remember a ss title if change goes ahead" [Unknown skill: necrosis] would be godly for a lvl 2 to have.

Well, you could make the thing take effect only when a character reaches level 20. Problem solved.

And the necessity to grind is not a valid justification for difficulty. The first time you do these missions you will have a low LB rank anyway, so if you can get it done with such then does it really matter?

Showtime · Feb 03, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

/signed

And I think capped elite skill should be opened to all characters. Maybe open captured elite skills on a different characters after that character has finished the campaign. Skill hunting the same skills FTL and is a serious grind.